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True | collinpetty | null | IANAH but as I understand it parties formed naturally. People naturally form into groups when trying to sway the opinions of others. Ask yourself, who is more likely to make a social change; a bunch of unorganized people who want change or a well organized group of people promoting for a common cause. | null | 0 | 1314593142 | False | 0 | c2fy8zp | t3_jxlaw | null | t1_c2fy8zp | t3_jxlaw | null | 1427532096 | 5 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | boozername | null | yeah this is what I learned too; the structure of our government and our Constitution enables parties to exist. They're more efficient, so they rise to prominence.
I think Jefferson wrote against political parties too, but also acknowledged the likelihood that they'd come to be eventually anyway. | null | 0 | 1314612462 | False | 0 | c2fzl7e | t3_jxlaw | null | t1_c2fzl7e | t1_c2fy8zp | null | 1427532728 | 1 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | alesserknownceleb | null | My understanding was that the Japanese intended to expand into SE Asia in order to access rubber and petroleum reserves there (Japan had relied on US oil exports, but by 1941 were completely cut off) - invading British and Dutch colonies made sense since they were occupied with Germany in Europe.
With the US being the only other major power in the area, the attack on Pearl Harbor was intended to cripple the US Pacific Fleet and prevent the United States from interfering in the Japanese Expansion. Although it's debatable, I'd imagine they thought that if the attack was successful enough, the US would either half-heartedly engage in a war or that Japanese naval superiority would lead to easy victories and a peace deal before any major retaliation could commence. | null | 0 | 1314636846 | True | 0 | c2g1ior | t3_jy24r | null | t1_c2g1ior | t3_jy24r | null | 1427533637 | 12 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | digger_ex_pat | null | Thanks. I had never heard that before.
What I did hear is that the Japanese were worried about DuPont's new invention, Nylon, and thought it might destroy the market for silk. Any truth to that? | null | 0 | 1314637722 | False | 0 | c2g1mqc | t3_jy24r | null | t1_c2g1mqc | t1_c2g1ior | null | 1427533690 | 1 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | DocFreeman | null | I got my BA in the History of Public Policy last Winter with a focus on the Cold War and more specifically modern Chinese-American relations.
So if I were to format it for this subreddit I would say "North American History/20th century/Chinese-American relations."
If it's any help I wrote my senior honors thesis on American State Department attaches and officials who crafted policy towards the Chinese Communist Party from 1936 until 1947. | null | 0 | 1314643810 | False | 0 | c2g2fib | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2g2fib | t3_jxh0x | null | 1427534067 | 5 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | alesserknownceleb | null | I hadn't heard that, so I did some internet research - take this with a grain of salt:
Japan's silk industry was hit hard by the great depression - silk was largely viewed as a luxury item, so it was one of the first exports to drop off as the world economy slipped. Tariffs placed on Japanese silk by about 40 countries in the next few years further dropped demand. Add into that the invention of nylon on 1935, and the silk industry was more or less decimated by the 1940's.
It seems to me that silk was already done as a major trade good by the time the Japanese were planning Pearl Harbor. Though I'm sure there were plenty of Japanese concerned about the introduction of nylon, I don't think they were really the ones planning Pearl Harbor. | null | 0 | 1314644193 | False | 0 | c2g2hcg | t3_jy24r | null | t1_c2g2hcg | t1_c2g1mqc | null | 1427534094 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Killfile | null | I got my BA in History from the University of Virginia in the winter of 2002 focusing on US - Soviet interaction during the Cold War with an additional concentration in Roman History.
So let's go with:
European History/20th Century/US-Soviet Relations | null | 0 | 1314645036 | False | 0 | c2g2l6e | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2g2l6e | t3_jxh0x | null | 1427534141 | 5 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Killfile | null | The answer depends on a great deal. For starters, how far before the Jamestown Colony? Remember that Columbus's ships introduced novel diseases to the Americas more than a century before the Jamestown colony was founded and many of those diseases had time to spread before John Smith ever set foot in the New World.
The late [Dr Michael Williams](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1475-4959.2009.00351.x/full) suggested that areas along the US Eastern Seaboard may have been as densely populated as Britain or France (on average) prior to the founding of the Jamestown Settlement.
Though, realistically, that's not terribly dense by modern standards -- a population density of about 2.5 people per square mile or so.
The geography of the Americas effectively insulated much of North America from the consequences of Colombian contact prior to European landfall in those areas. Because crops didn't move well along north-south trade routes and because the landmasses were connected across desert regions diseases didn't move easily from central and south America into North America. Of course, once Europeans showed up they brought their diseases with them.
But what was that population in hard numbers? It's hard to say. European diseases often proceeded European colonists and thus our records of populations are spotty at best.
| null | 0 | 1314645929 | False | 0 | c2g2pjq | t3_jxqy0 | null | t1_c2g2pjq | t3_jxqy0 | null | 1427534197 | 5 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | yang_gui_zi | null | I have a B.A. in history and am currently enrolled in an M.A. program in Washington, D.C. My plan is continue on to a PhD program in history shortly.
I study Modern East Asian History. To be broad, I am interested in 'War & Society.' To be slightly more specific, I am most interested in Chinese foreign relations, Chinese border regions (including Xinjiang and Manchuria), and North Korea. I have published papers on all these topics. | null | 0 | 1314668742 | False | 0 | c2g5jch | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2g5jch | t3_jxh0x | null | 1427535614 | 5 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | targustargus | null | At the risk of glibness: human nature. Strike that, primate nature. | null | 0 | 1314673916 | False | 0 | c2g673n | t3_jxlaw | null | t1_c2g673n | t3_jxlaw | null | 1427535914 | -1 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Rayyn | null | Since not many have posted; I am in my senior year of getting my BA in History with only my 2 senior seminar classes to go. I have focused on Medieval Europe as well as Feudal Japan. | null | 0 | 1314677153 | False | 0 | c2g6l8v | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2g6l8v | t3_jxh0x | null | 1427536100 | 6 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Rayyn | null | In addition to what alesserknownceleb posted, Japan was planning on a quick war where they accumulated large holdings in the Pacific before obtaining a favorable peace treaty. Japan's military leaders initially knew that they could not stand against the United States once it got fully into military production. The problem was that their early crushing victories emboldened them to the point where the original plan to sue for peace was forgotten. | null | 0 | 1314677399 | False | 0 | c2g6md5 | t3_jy24r | null | t1_c2g6md5 | t3_jy24r | null | 1427536115 | 5 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Artrw | null | Well, I can only set one class. I'll go ahead and set you up as Feudal Japan, since I imagine that is less common than medieval Europe. If you would rather be marked as Medieval Europe, go ahead and let me know. | null | 0 | 1314677513 | False | 0 | c2g6muh | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2g6muh | t1_c2g6l8v | null | 1427536123 | 3 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Rayyn | null | I have more knowledge regarding Europe. Perhaps a Military green tag with Feudal Warfare as the title? | null | 0 | 1314677822 | False | 0 | c2g6o3v | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2g6o3v | t1_c2g6muh | null | 1427536138 | 3 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Artrw | null | Will do. | null | 0 | 1314678196 | False | 0 | c2g6pnw | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2g6pnw | t1_c2g6o3v | null | 1427536159 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Phyledent | null | The illusion of choice. Important to control the human element. Watch The Matrix. | null | 0 | 1314682722 | False | 0 | c2g77ap | t3_jxlaw | null | t1_c2g77ap | t3_jxlaw | null | 1427536390 | -2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Killfile | null | What exactly do you mean by downplay and to what time period are you referring?
Western societies haven't been hugely concerned about genocide until fairly recently. When Andrew Jackson marched the Cherokee out of Georgia on the Trail of Tears it was in direct opposition to a Supreme Court decision; he got away with that because it was hugely popular.
Only recently have Americans really been concerned enough about the genocide against Native Americans to bother downplaying it at all.
So, to rephrase, are you talking about how the post-1950s-America-as-a-force-for-human-rights mindset reconciled itself with our national history of genocide against native populations or are you talking about the process by which Americans justified their extermination of Native populations in the 17th, 18th, 19th, and early 20th Centuries? | null | 0 | 1314712178 | False | 0 | c2g8xja | t3_jys6f | null | t1_c2g8xja | t3_jys6f | null | 1427537237 | 6 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | foretopsail | null | It depended on the state. Some states only concerned themselves with black people. Some states specifically mentioned a wide variety of minorities, including Asians. Many states just used the term "colored".
Sometimes it changed. Virginia, for instance, moved from a definition of "colored" that had been only concerned with black people to a definition that said "non-White". That happened in 1924.
Some states, like Texas, also had discriminatory laws aimed at Hispanic people.
There was also a federal law passed in 1882 called the Chinese Exclusion Act. This allowed Congress to suspend Chinese immigration, which they did. It also made Chinese people currently in the US permanent aliens, meaning they couldn't become citizens. They were also denied reentry to the country if they left for any reason.
You might be interested to read the abstract of [this paper](http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=283998&high=%20Gabriel%20CHin), which says in part: " In all states in which Asian-white marriage was restricted by race, so too was African American-white intermarriage; no statutes targeted Asians alone. But in virtually all states restricting African American intermarriage where there was a discernable Asian population - 1/2000th or more - Asian intermarriage was also regulated."
The easiest way to find more information is to look at a particular state's discriminatory laws, and then look to see what the definition they use for "non-White" or "colored" is. | null | 0 | 1314715699 | False | 0 | c2g99wg | t3_jy8eh | null | t1_c2g99wg | t3_jy8eh | null | 1427537365 | 8 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | bad_robot | null | The modern idea of genocide didn't really exist in the 1700's and 1800's -- genocide really came of age during WWII when technological advances also combined with education and science to allow governments and populace to identify and understand the horrors of genocide. During, for example, Andrew Jackson's time, the government was very small and had little facilities for science, research, and census of the American west. I theorize that the reports that the government got back from scouts and soldiers were "there are countless hordes of Indians" that were "raiders and such" [even if that was a mischaracterization of a few Indians to a whole group]. Lastly, I theorize the public was not engaged or interested at the time as times were very hard and people were divided among immigrants [thus poor and interested in working or moving out west where it was in their interest to somehow deal with the Indians/remove them from the land] or east-coast bound local folk who just wanted to work/advance their position and were not interested in what happened out west.
I guess if I had to pick something, it would be apathy -- same thing that leads 21st century man to "ignore" global issues. | null | 0 | 1314716730 | False | 0 | c2g9dst | t3_jys6f | null | t1_c2g9dst | t3_jys6f | null | 1427537417 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | bad_robot | null | Watch Survivor season I.
Although the contestants could have cooperated and worked everything out peacefully, certain elements with ulterior motives wanted "to win". Once the first alliance was formed, others were formed to counter it. | null | 0 | 1314717037 | False | 0 | c2g9eym | t3_jxlaw | null | t1_c2g9eym | t3_jxlaw | null | 1427537432 | 1 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | bad_robot | null | As far as I have heard, there were two classes: white and non-whites.
So asians would have had the same "rules" as blacks, mind you
-- they were not as vilified/mistreated as blacks (to my knowledge)
-- logically, they were very rare in the south where most of the segregation activity was. Historically, they were in larger numbers in California and I have not heard as much racial strife as did exist in the south. | null | 0 | 1314717536 | False | 0 | c2g9h4m | t3_jy8eh | null | t1_c2g9h4m | t3_jy8eh | null | 1427537466 | 3 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Phyledent | null | I think your question answered my own, and revealed my naivety. Public outrage or concern for other people's problems is a relatively new construct in the human experience. I was talking about the justifications in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, but now I realize that the question is kind of absurd. Human rights was a trivial issue in those days. This line of thought does raise questions about the nature of our own pseudo-philanthropic "America-as-a-force-for-human-rights mindset" though - questions about its inception, its dogma, its motives and boundaries. | null | 0 | 1314726210 | False | 0 | c2gaivp | t3_jys6f | null | t1_c2gaivp | t1_c2g8xja | null | 1427537954 | 3 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Phyledent | null | Refer to my reply to Killfile's comment for my basic reply to yours. Namely that it was naive of me to assume that public outrage for the genocide was even a possibility in the 1600-1800s. | null | 0 | 1314726393 | False | 0 | c2gajqp | t3_jys6f | null | t1_c2gajqp | t1_c2g9dst | null | 1427537966 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | [deleted] | null | Also, if you were anything other than white or black, you were a generic "brown" or "colored" person. It didn't matter what your unique, beautiful heritage was, you weren't white which wasn't right and you were treated like shit in some way with a host of awful stereotypes, especially if you were any Asian/Pacific Islander during WWII or anything darker than cinnamon ever. | null | 0 | 1314734478 | False | 0 | c2gbmtz | t3_jy8eh | null | t1_c2gbmtz | t1_c2g9h4m | null | 1427538546 | 3 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | wallychamp | null | I don't know if it is too out of line with the sub (or not credentialed enough), but I have a BFA with a minor in Art History.
My focus was pre-1700 Mediterranean Art, particularly in locations (North Africa, Sicily, Spain, Eastern Europe) where the local Art/Architecture was greatly influenced by frequent changes in culture. I guess it could be concisely put as "Islamic Art Pre-1700"?
If Art History is too specific, I won't have hurt feelings for being denied bling. | null | 0 | 1314737504 | False | 0 | c2gc195 | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2gc195 | t3_jxh0x | null | 1427538734 | 11 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Nawara_Ven | null | These are excellent additional research tips, thanks! | null | 0 | 1314746487 | False | 0 | c2gd6gv | t3_jy8eh | null | t1_c2gd6gv | t1_c2g99wg | null | 1427539274 | 1 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Artrw | null | For some reason your tag won't show up for me, does anyone else see it? | null | 0 | 1314749148 | False | 0 | c2gdi3w | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2gdi3w | t1_c2g5jch | null | 1427539427 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Artrw | null | Art History is definitely not too specific! We actually have a tag section for it, which you are now set up with. | null | 0 | 1314749256 | False | 0 | c2gdikf | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2gdikf | t1_c2gc195 | null | 1427539432 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | yang_gui_zi | null | Sorry! I just hit 'show my flair' and I think it should be visible now. | null | 0 | 1314750776 | False | 0 | c2gdp2s | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2gdp2s | t1_c2gdi3w | null | 1427539517 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Artrw | null | Worked! | null | 0 | 1314750885 | False | 0 | c2gdpl9 | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2gdpl9 | t1_c2gdp2s | null | 1427539523 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | [deleted] | null | Current Ph.D student. 19th and 20th century American West. | null | 0 | 1314752019 | False | 0 | c2gduhy | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2gduhy | t3_jxh0x | null | 1427539588 | 7 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | [deleted] | null | While George Washington's warning seems prophetic, you must keep in mind the context of these remarks. He was not warning posterity but his own peers. Parties began to form during the 1780-90s. Federalists (Washington, Adams, Hamilton) and Democratic-Republicans (Jefferson, Madison) engaged in rhetorical battles that would make the political discourse of the present look tame. Complete with tabloids, smear campaigns, early machine-politics, ect. Parties relied more on personalities then platforms.
Party politics during this period and emerged from the debates over the nature and function of government in the new republic. Examine the debates surrounding the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution and the emergence of these early parties will be obvious. They have always been with us and Washington did little to reverse this trend, despite his wise words.
For further reading on this topic, see *Affairs of Honor: National Politics in the New Republic* by Joanne Feeman | null | 0 | 1314752869 | True | 0 | c2gdyc8 | t3_jxlaw | null | t1_c2gdyc8 | t3_jxlaw | null | 1427539638 | 5 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Cosmic_Charlie | null | PhD Candidate, US History. Specialization in US labor and US/int'l business.
Dissertation deals with antiunionism and employer orgs in the early 20th C.
EDIT: I've also taught the second half of western civ. Gotta love departmental shortfalls. | null | 0 | 1314756188 | False | 0 | c2ged1i | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2ged1i | t3_jxh0x | null | 1427539831 | 7 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Cosmic_Charlie | null | It's a hugely complicated issue with no one answer.
Start here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Augsburg
Then go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia
Then if you're feeling especially adventurous, pick up a copy of Hobsbawm's *Nations and Nationalism*. | null | 0 | 1314756582 | False | 0 | c2geeug | t3_jyylz | null | t1_c2geeug | t3_jyylz | null | 1427539865 | 1 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | wallychamp | null | The extreme TL;DR of how the world looks today is that over the course of the 1000s a dozen or so civilizations (The English, French, Germans, Spanish, Ottoman Turks, Japanese et al.) muscled their way into dominating the rest of the world. By means of controlling the resources of these colonies, the trade routes to access the colonies and imposing taxes on their subjects, these powers accumulated massive wealth for the aristocracy in their homelands. This eventually a.) bred discontent amongst the locals, b.) jealously in their rivals^1 or c.) some combination of the two.
Without fail, these tensions came to violent heads in the forms of revolutions or power clashes (most notably the World Wars). Often times, these individual causes would piggy back off of each other.^2 These clashes have invariably resulted in either the complete dissolution of a state^3 or weakened them to the point where they could no longer maintain dominance over their colonies.^4
Of course, once these colonies became independent, several of their borders and definitions changed^5 and others may change still. Current nations are not really at an "end state" as much as they are in a "current state" which will continue to morph.
I apologize if this is too broad an answer, if you have more specific questions I would be happy to try and answer them.
1. Read about [Spain/Portugal in South America](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_America#European_colonization) or [Britain/France/Germany/Italy in Africa](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramble_for_Africa).
2. For example, [Archduke Franz Ferdinand's assassination](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Archduke_Franz_Ferdinand_of_Austria) was a play by a Serbian nationalist group to preserve their independence from the Austrians and Ottomans. This, of course, set off a domino effect of outrage and indignation that led to mass declarations of war.
3. [As in the Ottoman Empire after WWI](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_S%C3%A8vres).
4. [Britain](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire#Decolonisation_and_decline_.281945.E2.80.931997.29) and [France](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_colonial_empire#Decolonisation) after WWII.
5. The formation of [India and Pakistan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1947) or, more recently, [Eastern Europe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe#Since_1989) in the wake of the collapse of the U.S.S.R. | null | 0 | 1314756814 | True | 0 | c2gefxz | t3_jyylz | null | t1_c2gefxz | t3_jyylz | null | 1427539870 | 4 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Cosmic_Charlie | null | Memorizing facts and lists of minutia does not a historian make.
Using those facts to answer complicated questions that describe how something changed over time is "doing" history. | null | 0 | 1314756864 | False | 0 | c2geg6v | t3_jzbbq | null | t1_c2geg6v | t3_jzbbq | null | 1427539873 | 22 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | [deleted] | null | I have a PhD in Ancient History.
Broad area would be Religious History. Period is classical world to late antiquity. Speciality is ancient Israel.
I have lectured and tutored at a university in a number of areas, including Biblical History, Dead Sea Scrolls and Second Temple Judaism, Early Christianity, Late Antiquity, Hebrew language, and Ancient Myth.
Maybe I can be useful :) | null | 0 | 1314758831 | False | 0 | c2gepjd | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2gepjd | t3_jxh0x | null | 1427539995 | 8 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | MySuperLove | null | This answer was exactly what I was looking for, thanks. I'm partway through the Scramble for Africa article; it's quite interesting. | null | 0 | 1314759766 | False | 0 | c2geu1h | t3_jyylz | null | t1_c2geu1h | t1_c2gefxz | null | 1427540053 | 1 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | agentdcf | null | I'm a fifth-year PhD student in modern British history; my dissertation deals with the environmental history of food in the British empire and the United States.
Sorry, I'm not sure how to make my comment top-tiered. Is that just by replying to the opening poster? | null | 0 | 1314763549 | False | 0 | c2gfb9v | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2gfb9v | t3_jxh0x | null | 1427540280 | 5 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Artrw | null | Yep. Your post is top-tiered. | null | 0 | 1314764578 | False | 0 | c2gfflo | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2gfflo | t1_c2gfb9v | null | 1427540336 | 3 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | [deleted] | null | [deleted] | null | 0 | 1314764894 | False | 0 | c2gfgy3 | t3_jzbbq | null | t1_c2gfgy3 | t1_c2geg6v | null | 1427540353 | 6 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | FG_SF | null | Ph.D. candidate, first year; I have an M.A. in Medieval Europe & Empires. Ph.D. focuses are Medieval European Medicine & Public Health Policy; History of Medicine is my general degree area. I also have a hobbyist interest in Soviet history. | null | 0 | 1314770558 | False | 0 | c2gg3am | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2gg3am | t3_jxh0x | null | 1427540646 | 5 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | ahistoryofscience | null | If all goes according to plan, I'll be finishing up my history MA this semester. My interest lies in 19th century American history in a broad sense, but most of all the Civil War and its military and social history. So, maybe something like "19th Century US" or "US Civil War" or some combination of the two?
Also, great idea for a sub--when I found askscience, I was wondering why there wasn't something similar for history.
EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot about my username; I also have an interest in the history of science, primarily physics. | null | 0 | 1314770932 | False | 0 | c2gg4jv | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2gg4jv | t3_jxh0x | null | 1427540662 | 6 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | ThereWillBeHugs | null | I have an extremely narrow area of expertise. I've been studying the Early Roman Principate for twenty years in preparation for a screenplay I may never write, but still enjoy researching for.
The misconception I would like to correct is the common belief that Caligula was a sex fiend. He was actually extremely sexually conservative. As Princeps, Caligula held the office of Pontifex Maximus. When Rome became Christian many centuries later, this office became the Pope. Many believe the Romans had one set of values and when they became Christian they had a completely different set, but in actuality, Christianity formed under Roman rule and when it became popular it was assimilated into a religious structure that was already present.
What is lost on many while reading ancient sources is that when Suetonius or Seneca write about orgies or Julius Caesar having sex with boys and what not, these are either political slams or they are hyperbole to express with deep dismay how decadent and permissive their society has become.
One of the first things that Caligula did as Princeps was to banish prostitutes.
>The Spintriae, those panderers to unnatural lusts, he banished from the city, being prevailed upon not to throw them into the sea, as he had intended.
>http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_the_Twelve_Caesars/Caligula#XVI
He was so appalled by them, he wanted to drown them in the sea. So not only was he the "Pope" of Ancient Rome, he was a very strict one compared to Augustus and Tiberius. So when later stories are told that he was maybe having sex with his sisters and made his wife a prostitute, this is to point out how much of a horrible hypocrite he was. | null | 0 | 1314786999 | True | 0 | c2gh3ai | t3_jzbbq | null | t1_c2gh3ai | t3_jzbbq | null | 1427541117 | 13 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | wallychamp | null | Additionally, his talk of appointing his horse to Senate was a criticism and mockery of how useless he deemed Senators to be, not a sign of madness. This, too, was an attempt by his successors to discredit his legacy. | null | 0 | 1314796494 | False | 0 | c2ghp8o | t3_jzbbq | null | t1_c2ghp8o | t1_c2gh3ai | null | 1427541405 | 5 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | wallychamp | null | Money.
English explorers were incentivized to colonize the new world with the promise of land ownership. This, combined with accounts of the vast riches available in the Americas, persuaded a lot of people of means to risk the travel. Of course, they were ill prepared to deal with the hardships of colonization and the vast majority of them died within a few years. | null | 0 | 1314797753 | False | 0 | c2ghtvu | t3_k02i0 | null | t1_c2ghtvu | t3_k02i0 | null | 1427541466 | 7 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Killfile | null | I presumed money to be a major motivating factor but surely there were less risky ways - particularly for gentlemen - to profit handsomely from the Virginia Company.
I have a theory, but I haven't seen anyone really lay it out like this so I'm hesitant to call it anything but conjecture.
I would assume that the Virginia Company, being a Joint Stock Company, had two primary means by which people could profit from it -- either investment in the stock or participation in the colony. I would further venture that few of the former were involved in the latter.
That leaves the colonizers as the less well-to-do of those involved. Likewise, I would venture that the particular charter under which the Virginia Company operated granted land only to those who colonized and that, moreover, the Virginia Company itself could not own or stake claim to property as such.
In short, that the notion of corporate ownership was sufficiently new at this point as to prevent the Virginia Company from hiring a bunch of fairly competent types to do the hard work while the investors reaped the benefits by virtue of their capital involvement.
These factors together meant that only people of significant means could make the journey to Jamestown and that only by making the journey in person could they hope to derive any meaningful profit.
More briefly: the still developing notion of corporate ownership and the still somewhat feudal nature of England combined to narrowly focus the economic benefits of colonization upon gentlemen of means sufficient enough to undertake the voyage but insufficient to participate in the stock deals that backed the Virginia Company. | null | 0 | 1314799813 | False | 0 | c2gi1uk | t3_k02i0 | null | t1_c2gi1uk | t1_c2ghtvu | null | 1427541569 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | wallychamp | null | I think that is pretty spot on. I would imagine that the stratum of colonizer was closer to a contemporary "upper middle class" than to true aristocracy. This is a [list](http://www.preservationvirginia.org/rediscovery/page.php?page_id=31) of the settlers from the Historic Jamestown site, some research into the names might provide a better understanding of who these people were and why they put themselves at such risk.
Edit: Regarding your "less risky" comment: One needs to consider that English colonization is coming immediately after the Spanish returned from South and Central America with literally tons of Aztec and Inca riches as well as information regarding the cash crops of Tobacco and Lumber (as England's forests were nearly exhausted by then). These are all opportunities these gentlemen undoubtedly sought to exploit which could not be done remotely; high risk/high reward etc. | null | 0 | 1314800865 | True | 0 | c2gi6dc | t3_k02i0 | null | t1_c2gi6dc | t1_c2gi1uk | null | 1427541629 | 3 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | [deleted] | null | [deleted] | null | 0 | 1314802061 | False | 0 | c2gibui | t3_jzbbq | null | t1_c2gibui | t1_c2gh3ai | null | 1427541708 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Cosmic_Charlie | null | Not too sure what you mean by 'world identity' in your question.
Identity is one of the 'hot' topics in academia these days. What some refer to as 'identity politics' in the non-academic world has driven a large-scale rise in the number of academic studies on the topic. Questions of self-identity and self-identification are hugely popular. Many historians, particularly those that deal with cultural studies, care about questions like these. If you're looking for a good starter work, look to Benedict Anderson's *Imagined Communities* (1983 or '84, IIRC.) | null | 0 | 1314804409 | False | 0 | c2ginml | t3_k053z | null | t1_c2ginml | t3_k053z | null | 1427541858 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | wallychamp | null | It actually extends to a lot of cultures, the point was to make pagans feel at home in the church. For instance, a lot of patron saints very closely parallel "gods of..." and their churches exist where (or were converted from) ancient temples. I unfortunately don't know of any books or studies regarding this topic, though, just what I've taken from various Latin and History courses. | null | 0 | 1314805646 | False | 0 | c2giucd | t3_jzbbq | null | t1_c2giucd | t1_c2gibui | null | 1427541942 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | past_is_prologue | null | Collections Manager/Educator at a medium size civic museum. I have an MA in public history where I specialized in Canadian military history.
I suppose that means my broad area is modern military history.
I'd feel fairly comfortable discussing British North America/Canadian Military history from the War of 1812 to post-Cold War peacekeeping in the Balkans. I guess the tag could say "Military History | Canada" | null | 0 | 1314811891 | False | 0 | c2gjrmf | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2gjrmf | t3_jxh0x | null | 1427542451 | 7 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | the_human_man | null | Hmm, I'm not quite sure if I know what I mean myself. I think I want to know if there's any historians who've worked with how our common human identity (if there's such a thing), has changed throughout the times. The views of ourselves as a "group". Not so much national identities, as a "world" or human identity. | null | 0 | 1314812809 | False | 0 | c2gjw8k | t3_k053z | null | t1_c2gjw8k | t1_c2ginml | null | 1427542511 | 1 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | wallychamp | null | Imagined Communities is a good read then. I read it several years ago (so I might be getting the details a little fuzzy) but it essentially handles why people feel the need to belong and how that need developed into nations, clans, etc. | null | 0 | 1314814937 | False | 0 | c2gk7iq | t3_k053z | null | t1_c2gk7iq | t1_c2gjw8k | null | 1427542657 | 3 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | the_human_man | null | Thanks, will check that out then. | null | 0 | 1314816085 | False | 0 | c2gkdjm | t3_k053z | null | t1_c2gkdjm | t1_c2gk7iq | null | 1427542736 | 1 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | studakris | null | PhD candidate in American History, focusing on 20th century cultural history. If I had to narrow it even further, it would be history of pop culture with an emphasis on rap music. Wrote thesis on growth of early rap record labels. | null | 0 | 1314817404 | True | 0 | c2gkkec | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2gkkec | t3_jxh0x | null | 1427542825 | 8 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | [deleted] | null | I think this interpretation is fairly accurate. To add, historian Edmund Morgan argues that the "patriotic enterprise, had excited the imagination of England's nobility and gentry." This prompted 32 earls, 4 countesses, and 3 viscounts in addition to hundreds of lesser gentry to invest in the enterprise and make the voyage. While profit was of course a motivator, it may not have been the primary one since few English colonization attempts had turned significant profit prior to this (one of the reasons the crown offered little subsidization in comparison to other powers.)
Like you mentioned, this was a key reason for the disastrous start of Jamestown. The gentry had no manual skills, relied heavily on their attendants who could have offered useful skills to the colony had they not been serving their masters, and eventually embraced the importation of indentured servitude.
This may not be 100% accurate as the colonial period is not really my expertise but check out the first two sections of Morgan's *American Slavery, American Freedom* for further info on this. | null | 0 | 1314820458 | True | 0 | c2gkzx6 | t3_k02i0 | null | t1_c2gkzx6 | t1_c2gi1uk | null | 1427543029 | 7 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | fun_young_man | null | Hmm world sociological history. Would be interesting. Its definately studied but I don't know of anyone who has done it from a big history perspective. I'm interested to see what people link here. | null | 0 | 1314821168 | False | 0 | c2gl3hl | t3_k053z | null | t1_c2gl3hl | t1_c2gjw8k | null | 1427543075 | 1 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | ThereWillBeHugs | null | This fascinates me too. It wasn't until a couple of years ago that I fully realized this connection. I don't think there is a study of still existing ceremonies and so on passed on to the Catholic Church. There might be an ancient source detailing extensively various rituals but I haven't come across it yet. I would be ecstatic to find it though.
Personally I have been using the Catholic Church as insight into possible ceremonies of the Ancient Roman church. For example, much was made of Caligula being deified. To us today, this sounds super crazy. To the Romans it would have been merely an act of extreme hubris. Being deified to the Ancient Romans was more like being made a Saint today in Catholicism. In Roman religion Jupiter was analogous to God; the other Gods were analogous to angels, Mary, Saints, and such.
When Caligula was in power there already was a lot of concern about how politicized religion had become. Many were upset that politicians were being deified as an honor after death. So when Caligula had *himself* deified while *alive* clearly for political reasons, it really made a lot of people mad; not everyone though, because he had himself deified because his cult following called for it and when Tiberius' humbly declined to be deified, his cult following kind of turned on him.
Anyway, I went off on a tangent, but the way I tie this all to the Catholic Church was when Pope John Paul died, he was so popular that many were calling for him to be made a Saint immediately. It made me think that this must have been how the popular emperors ended up being deified.
Edit:
One thing that is probably carried over in some form is the burning of incense. I've never been to mass but from what I've seen on TV sometimes a priest waves an orb burning incense.
When the Senate met, a sacrifice of incense was offered to the Goddess Victory of which there was a statue in the Curia Julia where they met. So I'm thinking this similar ceremony may have been carried out in a similar fashion. | null | 0 | 1314821787 | True | 0 | c2gl6ho | t3_jzbbq | null | t1_c2gl6ho | t1_c2gibui | null | 1427543115 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | fun_young_man | null | Love me some Hobsbawm. | null | 0 | 1314821981 | False | 0 | c2gl7eu | t3_jyylz | null | t1_c2gl7eu | t1_c2geeug | null | 1427543126 | 6 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | PrimusPilus | null | I think in the case of Julius Caesar, vis-a-vis his alleged homosexual relationship with Nicomedes IV of Bithynia, we have a likely political smear.
However, in the case of Caligula, it is hard to believe that all that was written about him was false, or simply a metaphor for an increasingly permissive society. While the modern caricature of Caligula is probably largely formed by Bob Guccione's porn film, it is hard to escape the conclusion that Caligula was in some way mentally unbalanced, and in the cases of such people, nothing should be rejected as slander out of hand.
*Hactenus quasi de principe, reliqua ut de monstro narranda sunt*
I do not think that Suetonius used this phrase lightly.
| null | 0 | 1314852513 | False | 0 | c2gov91 | t3_jzbbq | null | t1_c2gov91 | t1_c2gh3ai | null | 1427544853 | 4 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Rayyn | null | Additionally the Japanese had long been set to prove themselves as an equal power to the Europeans. They way that these countries enriched themselves was through colonization. With the world mostly colonized by this point, other county's holdings had to be taken by force. | null | 0 | 1314854498 | False | 0 | c2gp2nh | t3_jy24r | null | t1_c2gp2nh | t1_c2g2hcg | null | 1427544948 | 1 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | agentdcf | null | I want my students to understand that the world as it has become, as we find it today, was not inevitable. Rather, it is the product of human choices and power relationships. The world is MADE by people; it did not have to be the way it is now, for good or for ill. | null | 0 | 1314857036 | False | 0 | c2gpatg | t3_jzbbq | null | t1_c2gpatg | t3_jzbbq | null | 1427545056 | 14 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | ThereWillBeHugs | null | I think Caligula was mad with power but not cuckoo mad. I think he was too young and lacked the apparent supervision that Augustus had. I don't think Augustus was nearly as powerful by himself at age twenty-four as Caligula was when he came to power. Marcus Silanus and Macro seemed to be the only elders giving Caligula guidance and providing restraint and he had them executed.
He was horribly obnoxious, abrasive, and snarky and would pull dramatic stunts to prove a point. Either they were extremely expensive like building the bridge in Naples to prove to the Parthian that Romans had the technology to cross the Hellespont if needed, or his stunts could end in war like his trying to put his statue in the Holy of Holies because one Jewish town had a temple dedicated to him torn down.
I am sure he was quite willing to make a horse Consul. He would do it thinking he had brilliantly made a point but in actuality he would be just causing diplomatic damage and damaging his own credibility.
From what I've triangulated, he was more just a really shitty politician with a complete lack of diplomacy than a mad man. But then a politician acting in a very childish manner is madness. | null | 0 | 1314871851 | True | 0 | c2gq1g5 | t3_jzbbq | null | t1_c2gq1g5 | t1_c2gov91 | null | 1427545404 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | [deleted] | null | [deleted] | null | 0 | 1314963726 | False | 0 | c2gza3j | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2gza3j | t3_jxh0x | null | 1427549886 | 1 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | [deleted] | null | [deleted] | null | 0 | 1314963989 | False | 0 | c2gzak6 | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2gzak6 | t1_c2g6pnw | null | 1427549895 | 3 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | LittleMerced | null | Different historians have different views on the rise of nationalism, the timing, what came first- the nation or nationalism, what makes a nation, etc. If you want to get in on the debate, I'd suggest: Imagined Communities by Anderson, Anthony Smith- Nationalism and Modernism, Tilly-Cities and the Rise of States in Europe, A.D. 1000 to 1800. | null | 0 | 1314964421 | False | 0 | c2gzbcd | t3_jyylz | null | t1_c2gzbcd | t3_jyylz | null | 1427549902 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | LittleMerced | null | That Lincoln was an abolitionist. | null | 0 | 1314964637 | False | 0 | c2gzbrd | t3_jzbbq | null | t1_c2gzbrd | t3_jzbbq | null | 1427549907 | 10 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | wallyflops | null | Whoa! nice username there,
Champ.ಠ\_ಠ
| null | 0 | 1314975137 | False | 0 | c2h0aec | t3_jzbbq | null | t1_c2h0aec | t1_c2ghp8o | null | 1427550360 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | wallychamp | null | It's a rap [reference](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostface_Killah#Aliases), I'm sure you could be the champ of the real wallys. | null | 0 | 1314975470 | False | 0 | c2h0bt4 | t3_jzbbq | null | t1_c2h0bt4 | t1_c2h0aec | null | 1427550378 | 3 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | [deleted] | null | [deleted] | null | 0 | 1315025475 | False | 0 | c2h672o | t3_jzbbq | null | t1_c2h672o | t1_c2gl6ho | null | 1427553221 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Rayyn | null | While feats shown in movies are embellished to make for good cinema there is no doubt that armies such as the ancient Romans and Spartans were formidable fighting forces. The success of their respective countries/city-states in warfare bears this out.
Depending on the period of history we have a pretty good idea of the general overview of how countries were run and how major political events transpired. Our understanding of history is usually from the viewpoint of those educated enough to record events. For this reason much of our understanding of history comes from nobility and religious groups. In many cases our understanding of how daily life transpired for a common person is completely limited to interpretation of physical artifacts.
Overall though it really varies, depending on the time period and location historians can have access to lots of or little data.
tldr: It depends on the time and place. | null | 0 | 1315027385 | False | 0 | c2h6d66 | t3_k38l0 | null | t1_c2h6d66 | t3_k38l0 | null | 1427553292 | 9 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | WifoutTeef | null | Thanks! I don't know if it's just me but I just think it's weird how humans were actually pretty goddamn advanced back then. | null | 0 | 1315027588 | False | 0 | c2h6dt4 | t3_k38l0 | null | t1_c2h6dt4 | t1_c2h6d66 | null | 1427553304 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | past_is_prologue | null | I worked in an art gallery for a year that featured a very large tapestry in one of the exhibit areas. The tapestry featured a hunting scene and was from a set of 12. Our gallery had one, a gallery in PA had one, and the other 10 were apparently owned by Bill Gates. Not only that, but our registrar claimed that his representatives had contacted the museum about purchasing it. (that would never happen, but I'd be interested to see what he was willing to pay). The fact that he was willing to try to buy it means that he has likely bought things from galleries in the past. So, in a sense, that is the practical answer to your question. No smoke without fire and all that.
Now, the meat of the issue. The problem with relics is authentication. I work in an institution now that has several neat (not groundbreaking, but cool to a history nerd) objects. While we have a fairly good idea where these objects came from and why they're important, we're lacking a paper trail that links them to the past. Most came were donated in the 1960s when record keeping and, to be honest, integrity, weren't especially high priorities in the museum field. Consequently, our objects may be what we think they are, and they may not be. Once things bounce around in private collections long enough, their real identity can be lost. So, some old rich guy could claim to own William Wallace's sword, when in reality it is just a sword from the time of Wallace. Ultimately, the reason why we know some objects are authentic is because they have been held in the public trust basically since their owner died. One really good example of this is basically all the Smithsonian's collection of military uniforms. most of them came from the widows, or from the men themselves. Ike's M44 jacket? 100% authentic. How do we know? It was given to the museum by Ike himself.
So, are there large chunks of history squirreled away in in some rich guys games room? Possibly. What is for sure, however, is the illegal trade of antiquities and other objects. That is a booming market even today. That is why it is so hard to get an archaeology permit in Turkey. Rich people definitely have a massive treasure trove of anonymous antiquities, there is no doubt of that, but my guess is that most of the verified stuff, the stuff that we know for sure what it is, is in the hands of museums or other historical institutions, be they private or public.
Sorry if that doesn't make sense, it is very late.
| null | 0 | 1315028563 | True | 0 | c2h6gvr | t3_k397l | null | t1_c2h6gvr | t3_k397l | null | 1427553344 | 10 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | [deleted] | null | I did a little more exploring on this and wanted to throw in a few more things. Another reason for the enthusiastic participation by the English gentry was due to the Virginia Company's expectation that they would find rare minerals in the New World. They wanted Jamestown to be a mining outpost. In many ways they thought they would mimic the Spanish and discover gold and silver. The gentry, of course, expected to touch down, grab up land and set up mining operations. They did not expect to be starving and required to toil in the fields. | null | 0 | 1315030736 | False | 0 | c2h6n66 | t3_k02i0 | null | t1_c2h6n66 | t1_c2gkzx6 | null | 1427553433 | 3 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | WedgeHead | null | PhD candidate (ABD) in the History of the Ancient Near East (the academic term for the ancient Middle East and Mesopotamia). My research deals primarily with cultural identity and ancient texts (tablets) written in Akkadian and Sumerian. | null | 0 | 1315054286 | False | 0 | c2h7p1a | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2h7p1a | t3_jxh0x | null | 1427553918 | 4 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | WedgeHead | null | Rayyn is correct. This is a matter of much speculation, and obviously we cannot know for sure. It depends heavily on the time and place, but in the last fifty years our understanding of the ancient world especially has made incredible advances. Until the 20th century, virtually everything people knew about the ancient past was derived from a few ancient works of literature, such as the Illiad, the Bible, or the Chinese Shangshu (Classic of History). A few early adventurer-archaeologists complicated the picture a little bit, but it generally created more problems than it solved.
All this has changed in the last hundred years, and especially in the last fifty years. The standardization of international research methods, the coordination made possible through communication technology, and the uses of scientific techniques has opened up the ancient world in profound ways. Today we know a ton about the general picture of some periods of ancient history, periods that were virtually unknown just a few decades ago. Some significant gaps (dark ages) remain in the continuity of the story, but it would not be inaccurate to say that we know thousands more years of history than most people have known.
There are still huge problems in the details, of course, but our *general* idea of life in ancient and medieval times is pretty accurate. If we sent a historian back in time to any major civilization after the rise of Sumer, it is pretty likely that he or she would understand much of what he sees. The language would sound only similar enough that one could figure it out, the culture would have some surprises but would generally make sense, and the materials and technology would mostly correspond to our picture. The time-traveler would certainly not be able to fit in, but assuming they did not kill him as a stranger, one should probably be able to make good sense of most of what he or she finds.
tldr: Our *general* idea of life in the ancient and medieval world is *probably* more accurate than not, at least in the stable periods. | null | 0 | 1315055733 | True | 0 | c2h7rp3 | t3_k38l0 | null | t1_c2h7rp3 | t3_k38l0 | null | 1427553952 | 7 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | DocFreeman | null | I can't recall any instance of Mao or anyone else in the PRC leadership directly calling out the United States for its treatment of Chinese immigrants but its certainly possible. If anything PRC criticism since its creation has largely focused on America's "expansionist" posturing in the region and her "hypocrisies" of promoting freedom and democracy.
But at the same time, PRC/US relations are a very complicated diplomatic game. Especially now with the two economies linked for the foreseeable future both sides have kept most of their criticism on a rhetorical level for fear of disrupting trade.
As for Taiwan....well I think at the end of the day they're more afraid of losing American support than they're interested in getting an apology.
(Just to note, my studies in College only tangentially touched on your question so if you did some digging it's quite possible Mao launched a criticism of American treatment of domestic Chinese, I've just never seen it. All I can say is that, at least from my research, it hasn't been the #1 stumbling block for American-Chinese relations) | null | 0 | 1315059916 | False | 0 | c2h80xb | t3_k2p20 | null | t1_c2h80xb | t3_k2p20 | null | 1427554077 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Rayyn | null | An additional point I forgot to mention earlier is that when you go back to the point where written documentation such as manuscripts and extensive engravings/ stone tablets begin to dwindle, our understanding grows much, much fuzzier. | null | 0 | 1315086206 | False | 0 | c2hakvh | t3_k38l0 | null | t1_c2hakvh | t1_c2h7rp3 | null | 1428195628 | 3 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | randomrealitycheck | null | Here's tip - call them.
On three separate occasions, I have had to call the Census Bureau for information and on each occasion they have been incredibly helpful. I can say the same thing about the DOE.
It almost makes you feel good about the government. | null | 0 | 1315090569 | False | 0 | c2hazvw | t3_k3v2l | null | t1_c2hazvw | t3_k3v2l | null | 1427555476 | 4 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | alesserknownceleb | null | A little off topic, but here's something that always blows my mind along the same vein - imagine everything that's happened since the founding of Rome around 500BC. The assassination of Caesar, the fall of the Western Empire, the Dark Ages, Medieval Europe, The Renaissance, Christopher Columbus, The Ming Dynasty, Napoleon, The World Wars... Think of that great expanse of time and all the people who lived and died in it.
At the height of the Roman Empire, when Augustus ruled, that's about how long the Great Pyramid at Giza had been standing in the desert. | null | 0 | 1315104338 | False | 0 | c2hc9mq | t3_k38l0 | null | t1_c2hc9mq | t1_c2h6dt4 | null | 1427556073 | 10 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | [deleted] | null | [deleted] | null | 0 | 1315108342 | False | 0 | c2hcnih | t3_k3r2q | null | t1_c2hcnih | t3_k3r2q | null | 1427556255 | 5 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | jason-samfield | null | Also, at what rate does geological sedimentary mechanisms work upon what could be retrieved in archaeological searches?
The second question would revolve around the Atlantis myth.
The reason that I think it is possible is because humanity seems destined to destroy itself and conflicts abound.
In addition, humanity has manifested civilized societies many times in separate instances such as Mesoamerica versus Mesopotamia, but yet our great republics have almost always risen and subsequently fallen. Not a single republic, regime, government, institution, or any other grouping of peoples by way of some type of society with some degree of civilization has maintained steadfast since its inception for any more length of time than the longest running of such society that is still currently running (not sure which that might be) nor longer than the longest running society (the Roman Empire?).
So, at present, it seems almost more likely for humanity to have a natural tendency to occasionally enter dark ages rather than not at all.
Therefore, why only one great "dark age"? As of this moment, my opinion has changed to where I now think that it's more plausible for other "bright ages" to have existed than not. If any did occur though, humanity either messed things up horribly or some sort of natural disaster nearly wiped us out. Our prior tracks are quite hidden thus far. | null | 0 | 1315113175 | False | 0 | c2hd37m | t3_k3r2q | null | t1_c2hd37m | t1_c2hcnih | null | 1427556460 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | RedPotato | null | I agree with past_is_prologue, but let me add to it. (I have an academic background in the history of museums and collecting).
Items that are relics in the true sense of the word (religious artifacts) are mostly in public collections or institutions at this point. There is no true way to affirm that yes/no this object did or didn't belong to a saint, and the text accompanying the item often leaves a bit out doubt. Its common to see text that says something like, "Believed to be the right arm of Saint So-and-so, this relic was owned by the queen...." These relics also can stir a bit of controversy because people either ferociously believe they are real, or not. Consider the shroud of tourin - there is quite a debate going on with that, but it is not in private hands, i.e., rich people, instead it resides in the vatican.
The rich people who did own relics (as in cool, famous, old stuff) were the american oil barons and imperialists. in the late 1800s and early 1900s, as americans and europeans set out to take over other lands, eastern "relics" were stolen and brought to the US/europe. First entering private collections, personal ownership fell out of favor. Some historical people donated entire collections for the public to see, and others just a few objects. This is what fills our museums today. There is much more social clout and altruism by having a little tag next to a work in the Met that says one's name, than keeping is stored up in one's own home.
The best example I can think of that is in this type of scenario is the Stavelot Triptych, which is said to have a piece of the true cross.
"Possibly made for Abbot Wibald, who headed the Benedictine Abbey of Stavelot (in present-day Belgium) from 1130 to 1158. The triptych was in the possession of the abbey’s last prince-abbot when he fled during the French Revolution in 1792; purchased by J. Pierpont Morgan in 1910; bequeathed to the Library by J.P. Morgan (1867-1943)." -themorgan.org
this object is now in the Morgan Library and Museum in NYC, which became a public institution after JP's death, and you can go visit there today. This, like most other relics depend on how much you really believe its the real deal.
But to answer your question, most rich people donated all the stuff to museums, and the other ones make their items known to researchers and scholars. Documenting the trail of ownership of an item is very well traced, so when these items do get auctioned, there are records of ownership that can later be tracked. Oh, and today's fashion is not to own really old relics from medieval times (style today is to donate those). Instead, today's rich person wants an impressionist or cubist work, or if they want to seem super-cool, they want a contemporary like koons or hirst. (Bill gates, excluded, I guess.)
What is more possible, however, is people who have stuff and they don't know what it is. This is often middle class families who acquired unidentified stuff. These people usually don't know what they have and don't care to get it appraised. They have cooler finds. | null | 0 | 1315113738 | True | 0 | c2hd4wr | t3_k397l | null | t1_c2hd4wr | t3_k397l | null | 1427556492 | 1 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | [deleted] | null | This is waaaay out of my area of specialty and that of mos historians. Archeologists and evolutionary biologists would probably be able to provide a more coherent explanation but here is my take:
Our accumulated archeological knowledge over the last 200(ish) years have identified only a handful of societies that generated original written language. Almost all written language can be traced back to a handful of original systems which makes it easier for us to identify the expansion of complex societies. The phenomena of writing began during the Bronze Age. This coincided with the rapid advancement of regional trade, complex technologies, accumulation of surplus, development of cities, ect... Ok, nothing new here.
Prior to this our findings have shown a gradual development of tools, culture, and settlements over the course of 200,000ish previous years. The likelihood that an autonomous homo sapien society developed during this period and had no identifiable connection to the rise of civilizations elsewhere is slim. Furthermore, the chances that any advanced society existed when the vast majority of homo sapiens, across the planet, lived in drastically less advanced societies is even slimmer. Prior to that homo sapiens did not exist.
Final comment on your other comment that we are destined to destroy ourself. I would say we have done a fantastic job of not doing that so far. We have dramatically increased life expectancy rates across the planet despite the development of increasingly dangerous and complex systems of war. The rise and fall of governments says little about humanities ability to endure. We don't need steady, consistant governments to go on living. | null | 0 | 1315127669 | False | 0 | c2he0uq | t3_k3r2q | null | t1_c2he0uq | t3_k3r2q | null | 1427556969 | 7 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | banal_penetration | null | Just discovered this sub - I have a History BA, focused mostly on modern European history. My main area of knowledge is the history of Russia/Eastern and Central Europe in the first half of the 20th century.I am particularly interested/knowledgeable in the culture of Stalinist Russia, and my dissertation was on dress and 19th century english masculinity. | null | 0 | 1315132065 | False | 0 | c2he6sj | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2he6sj | t3_jxh0x | null | 1427557047 | 3 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Speculum | null | Relevant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis | null | 0 | 1315136808 | False | 0 | c2hecuz | t3_k3r2q | null | t1_c2hecuz | t3_k3r2q | null | 1427557126 | -1 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | runarmar | null | There is nothing that indicates that viking helmets were horned. | null | 0 | 1315144729 | False | 0 | c2heqh3 | t3_jzbbq | null | t1_c2heqh3 | t3_jzbbq | null | 1427557307 | 12 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | dgillz | null | >Jews
http://www.apostropheabuse.com | null | 0 | 1315147822 | False | 0 | c2hey1h | t3_k4cof | null | t1_c2hey1h | t3_k4cof | null | 1427557402 | 0 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | Speculum | null | It's complicated but the short answer is: No.
He wanted to kill the Jews because he saw them / their "genes" as dangerous to mankind like a parasite.
Of course he used the Anti-zionist argument quite efficiently to justify his opinion. | null | 0 | 1315155249 | False | 0 | c2hfl6l | t3_k4cof | null | t1_c2hfl6l | t3_k4cof | null | 1427557706 | 0 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | jason-samfield | null | By destroying ourselves, I guess I meant with respect to governments. Not a single government has lasted through the test of time. Existing governments are relatively new and many are not exactly stable. We are always about two weeks from anarchy. For example, look at the recent rioting in London. And governments of antiquity that lasted a very long time eventually fell. Let's rank the longest running stable societies from longest to shortest and at the top of the list is your best contender thus far that would be against the postulation that humanity or better stated civilization naturally falls into the dark ages. | null | 0 | 1315158456 | False | 0 | c2hfwsr | t3_k3r2q | null | t1_c2hfwsr | t1_c2he0uq | null | 1427557859 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | jason-samfield | null | I guess what I do not know about is the rigor and due diligence that has been applied to archaeological findings over that 200,000+ years of prehistory.
How deep do you have to dig to find things? How fast do sedimentary mechanisms cover up the past?
How systematic and widespread as well as rigorous and diligent have we been about searching for prehistory human cultures?
How far fetched would it be that a society maybe not advanced like Hong Kong, or even like Rome, but more like Sumer or Ur existed 50,000 years ago and then went into a dark age before reemerging?
We've tracked the migration of humans from Africa to India, the Caucus Mountains, and also those who went to Australia and Polynesia, and lots of study has gone to the great migration to the Americas prior to the Columbian Exchange, but did we not find any evidence of advancing culture that might look more like Sumer and less like purely tribalism or hunter-gather society?
At my best analysis, I've noticed findings here and there that have continuously pointed to the fact that we have consistently underestimated our ancestors in their advancements with tools, culture, language, intelligence, and such.
Therefore, I find it hard to believe that Sumer and the like were the first and no others existed prior, but fell to famine, political instability, natural disaster, or conflict between neighboring and or conquering peoples and subsequently went underground both figuratively and literally in such ways that we have yet to discover them to one degree or another. | null | 0 | 1315158966 | False | 0 | c2hfynz | t3_k3r2q | null | t1_c2hfynz | t1_c2he0uq | null | 1427557883 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | [deleted] | null | But we don't want governments to stay stable and last forever. Not to say they always get better but we haven't seen a Khan or Caesar in a long time and that it most definitely for our collective benefit. The riots in London had specific socio-economic causes and did not threaten the British government in a significant way. They exposed the hypocrisy present in modern, capitalist societies but little else.
Another example to consider: China. China has remained relatively cohesive for thousands of years, through countless dark ages, imperial conquests, ect. They have had countless governments but as a people they remain, some thrive, others dont. Dark ages and collapses do not end or wipe out societies. | null | 0 | 1315160036 | True | 0 | c2hg2l8 | t3_k3r2q | null | t1_c2hg2l8 | t1_c2hfwsr | null | 1427557934 | 5 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | [deleted] | null | Hopefully an archeologist will stumble into this thread and be able to provide you with better answers then I can. As for your first two questions, rigorous and fairly widespread but based on information gained from other, know sites. THink of it as layering our knowledge of the past, each site is a new layer that leads us to another site. This is the "web" of civilization that I referred to earlier. For one to exist outside of one of these webs seems highly implausible.
50,000 years ago the earth was in an ice age, so this would be pretty unlikely.
Our ability to tack global migrations, substantiate them with evidence should tell you a lot. Conditions in human societies prior to 5-10 thousand years ago did not advance steadily or rapidly. It was slow and gradual. The real question is this: we know that the vast majority of humans existed in tribal or proto-tribal conditions for the majority of the past 200,00 years. We have the evidence to show this. Where is the evidence that shows otherwise?
Is there a chance we simply haven't found it? Sure. But the fact that we have concrete evidence that most humans could only produce the simplest tools suggests that a complex society emerging independently of anything else and utterly collapsing with no evidence at all is highly unlikely. If we can find the small, crude tools our ancestors used 100,000 years ago we should absolutely be able to detect the remnants of cities. | null | 0 | 1315160839 | True | 0 | c2hg5ob | t3_k3r2q | null | t1_c2hg5ob | t1_c2hfynz | null | 1427557975 | 3 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | jason-samfield | null | The riots in London didn't threaten the government wholly, but to one degree or another it did threaten the stability of society and it also showed that anarchy is always just below the surface of society. It's part of the human condition it seems. That's all that example was meant to show.
China itself has remained cohesive, yet it has experiences times when large governments have collapsed. The people and culture survives, but the governments have not. So maybe, they are an example of humanity pushing culture through dark ages of political stability, yet in Europe, culture was lost during similar dark ages of conquest, collapse, and the rule of religion over science.
One could then also state that we are currently experiencing an increasing dark age of religion because science is eclipsing much of the religious ideology and considering it myth until proven otherwise. Thus, the term dark age is ostensibly malleable.
Therefore, I'd like to restate what I originally meant then. By dark age, I meant a loss of culture, societal, or government stability and culmination when a certain event triggered a collapse or a run for the hills event scattering everyone across the lands and back into the woods so that humanity became less civilized (in a purely civilization connotation). This would then require a regrouping before humanity could persist further in advancing civilization that would eventually lead to Sumer, history, and so on to present day society.
Succinctly, are there lost Sumer's out there that we have yet to find? | null | 0 | 1315161243 | False | 0 | c2hg7a0 | t3_k3r2q | null | t1_c2hg7a0 | t1_c2hg2l8 | null | 1427558000 | 0 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | jason-samfield | null | OK, well stated and I agree with you now. You answered my probing questions pretty well. The only cases that I could think of would be a Pompei-like situation that happened upon a Sumer or isolated civilization of any advancement level that would have been lost to the event in a sweeping and quick blow which would have wiped out the evidence elsewhere as well as at the site itself. This would lend itself to be difficult to discover, uncover, and pinpoint.
I think the chances are much slimmer than I originally thought when I began conjuring this line of questioning and theory, but I did not think about it necessarily in the terms of how extensive our uncovering of the past and the methodology we have used to connect past together has been to present day. Essentially, I wasn't fully aware of how we found history or connected it all together. | null | 0 | 1315161626 | False | 0 | c2hg8si | t3_k3r2q | null | t1_c2hg8si | t1_c2hg5ob | null | 1427558015 | 3 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | cosmotheassman | null | With respect to everyone in this thread, is there any way there could be a specific tag or marker for people with PhDs or PhD candidates? I'm about to get my BA in history and I feel like those who have or are earning their PhD are at another level. | null | 0 | 1315161844 | False | 0 | c2hg9mw | t3_jxh0x | null | t1_c2hg9mw | t3_jxh0x | null | 1427558026 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | [deleted] | null | Well we still have a lot of work to do and a lot of unknowns out there. ALOT. But I just think that a discover of an unconnected, 10k+ civilization wouldn't just alter our understanding of the human past it would rewrite it. And so far, we have no evidence that one such society existed and a lot of evidence to suggest that humans had not reached that level of complexity prior to 10k years ago. | null | 0 | 1315165363 | False | 0 | c2hgnjm | t3_k3r2q | null | t1_c2hgnjm | t1_c2hg8si | null | 1427558210 | 3 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | fun_young_man | null | http://digital.library.fordham.edu/cdm4/index_hist.php?CISOROOT=/hist is a large private collection ancient Roman and Etruscan objects that has very recently entered the public domain. I think its safe to say other such collections still exist within private hands. Back when I was fUNemployed I would occasionally attend Sotheby's auctions some really cool stuff gets sold there. | null | 0 | 1315186681 | True | 0 | c2hiyhq | t3_k397l | null | t1_c2hiyhq | t3_k397l | null | 1427559296 | 2 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
True | [deleted] | null | [deleted] | null | 0 | 1315232793 | False | 0 | c2hmen1 | t3_k053z | null | t1_c2hmen1 | t3_k053z | null | 1427561008 | 3 | t5_2ssp3 | null | null | null |
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